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Your drama has no power over me

Drama Llama

Last night we .. didn’t have drama. We had the potential for drama.. but it just kind of .. didn’t become drama.

How it happened: Two months ago a holy paladin, who we’ll call “Holierthanthou,” was recruited into the guild. He played with us for 2-3 weeks.. but then disappeared for about 1.5 months. Last week he showed up again.

Two days ago we had an all-guild meeting to discuss the loot rules. The current rules boil down to one-purple per raid night with priority given to Mains over Alts. I actually don’t know if “Holierthanthou” was present at the meeting.. but he was invited and encouraged to attend. The guild was told that after the meeting the guild’s decision would be binding. After a long discussion and a vote the guild decided to leave the rules as they are.

Yesterday we went into TK. We downed Al’ar and the big flamey bird dropped a melee leather piece. We called for rolls from Mains.. then from Alts.. then offered it up for off-spec. “Holierthanthou” rolled on it and picked it up for his “retribution” set. The next piece of loot was a healing ring. “Holierthanthou” rolled on that too and was reminded that he was only allowed one purple a night. The ring then went to one of the Protection pallies as part of his healing set.

Now, pausing here.. I totally agree that the healing ring should have gone to the healing paladin.. and seriously, what paladin is going to sport leather in his Ret set? But although it’s not the optimal way it should have gone.. given the loot rules it was totally within the guidelines.

“Holierthanthou” then said he didn’t think he could be part of a guild that would only allow him to win one piece a night. He waited for a few minutes.. and when we didn’t beg him to stay (or offer to make it up to him) then he left the raid and the guild. As a parting shot he said “It’s been real.. and it’s been fun but it hasn’t been real fun” and then some snipe about with our ludicrous loot rules we wouldn’t go far.

Whatever anyone else may think of our loot rules. They are our rules. They’re clearly posted and we do our best to abide by them. Given our constraints** we’ve devised the rules to be as fair as we can possibly make them. We didn’t come up with them willy nilly.. we arrived at these rules by carefully considering how to be fair balanced against encouraging people to raid for little reward.

Now.. it was possible, right after “Holierthanthou” left.. that the raid and guild could have exploded into loot drama and backstabbing and horrible ick. But instead everyone took it in stride.. and several people in the guild essentially said “don’t let the door hit you on the way out” and we went on to down everything else in TK except for Kael.

I love my guild.

So.. what do I think this says… I -think- the rest of the guild sees that we’re trying to be fair with the loot distribution.. and I think that by allowing everyone to have a say in the loot rules they have now bought into them (it also helps that “Holierthanthou” was being a bit of an asshat before this little kerfuffle so I don’t think anyone will miss him specifically).

**The GM is adamantly opposed to a DKP system so that will not be considered.

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17 comments to Your drama has no power over me

  • Isisxotic

    Good for you – stick to the rules, otherwise accusations of favoritism can be slung around very quickly.

    That being said, the loot rule does seem a bit odd to me – perhaps make it one epic *for mainspec* per raid night? The current rules would prevent me from ever building an offspec set – I wouldn’t want to miss out on the shiny stuff for my main spec!

    However, it is a *guild* policy, and shouldn’t be overturned in the middle of a raid because something came up. Good for you for sticking to it – until it gets changed.

    Isisxotics last blog post..5 Great Addons You May Not Know About

  • Artorin

    Those rules are kind of harsh and I feel bad for the pally…. untill he did something as immature as to leave the raid and guild. My pitty ends there. That said it seems like alot of things will get sharded that people may actually use. I mean then if that protection pally were to get an actual tank drop and not be able to roll on it seems really harsh.

    For the most part my guild follows the same guildlines except that it is better for an item to go to someone then get sharded but that shouldn’t hurt someones chances to roll on something they actually need to fill their roll better.

    I highly disagree with DKP too my guild pretty much has open rolls on everything we just expect the members to be mature enough to handle things like the above.

  • Nothing wrong with your loot system.

    My guild uses straight up roll for main spec, then it opens to offspec and if no-one wants it , it gets sharded and the mats go to guild bank for enchants.

    We don’t even differentiate between mains and alts because the alt that was there put the boss down and helped just as much. You never know when you are going to want to bring someone’s alt in for a specific fight.

    As guild leader I will not roll an alt against someone’s main simply because I love seeing my friends get loot that make them better.

  • If there is one thing I’ve learned about loot rules, it is that they will never make EVERYONE happy. Your loot rules seem very fair and since they were agreed upon by the guild that is how you have to enforce them. Sorry the Paladin didn’t agree but thems the breaks!

    Fear.Wins last blog post..Blue Answers Demonology Questions.

  • Andor

    I had the pleasure of being on this run and it went down exactly as you said. I think the sum of the guild’s opinion about this person /gquitting was a resounding “Meh.”

    The loot rules might seem a but strict on paper, but in practice they work out to be very effective for our particular situation. Often people pass on minor upgrades to assist others in getting better geared. And I have yet to see an item sharded that could benefit a player.

    The guild has evolved into being much more selfless than selfish where loot is concerned. Not such a bad thing to be a part of IMO.

  • Nibuca

    Despite the fact that I think it will be boring reading, I think I’ll do a post that traces the evolution of our loot system.

    We started off very simply.. and then as people have.. complained, the system has evolved.

    The rules are setup both to enforce fairness.. and to discourage cheese-dickery.

  • I agree that loot should be distributed fairly, but requiring that a person get only a single piece of loot — regardless of whether it was main, off, or even PvP spec — seems a bit silly. A lot of raids adopt a policy that for main spec you only get a single item, yet are prioritized over offspecs. In other words, in the aforementioned scenario, the gentleman would have won the main spec ring despite having won a piece of loot previously that evening, because it was offspec and not mainspec.

    There are two main reasons for this type of loot rules. In the first, the raid benefits most from gearing up mainspec before offspec. As a result, the quicker you gear up core raiding specs, the quicker you’ll progress. Allowing for multiple items in a single night also means that people don’t have to hesitate to bid on loot. This encourages people to bid for loot that is upgrade rather than hold out for loot that might not even drop. For example, if someone sees an item that will increase his healing minutely — but it’s still an increase! — he can bid and win without worrying that the bigger upgrade will go to an offspec person, which wouldn’t benefit the raid as much.

    While I probably would have spoken up personally about the loot rules at the meeting for those reasons, changing policy in the middle of a raid isn’t right. And the attitude of Holierthanthou was pretty piss-poor.

    We Drunken Badgers on Feathermoon are currently having our own loot discussions. We use Suicide Kings and it’s been pretty favorable for the vast majority of our raiders, but the people who are trying to hold out for specific loot are getting cranky with the loot rules because they feel that it’s unfair that they’re not winning loot because they choose not to bid. I think that how loot is handled is always a problem that a guild/raid deals with!

  • khassad

    In my guild officers assign loots without rolls, taking into account attendance, skill, performance. This is a strict rule, but once officers make the best to be fair and optimize overall guild gear level, this is the best way to avoid drama.

    Rolls are unfair, because needs are not taken into account and all is left to a RNG.

  • I’m most grateful that my GM isn’t opposed to DKP. I would hate having to roll on everything with my bad luck.
    DKP smoothens things out a bit and diminishes the risks for that kind of guild drama.
    That said ofc rules are rules and you can’t make a fuzz about it afterwards like he did. Even though they’re a bit strange.

    Larísas last blog post..Planning for the Midnight release

  • In my opinion there’s something wrong with that system. Loot must serve one purpose: help the progression of the raid. It’s not something about greed or who get’s how many purples. We usually have a dkp system because we are quite hardcore and that makes the people sign up every single night, but in our off raids, were you raid with alts also, we have something similar to your guild rules: You can have one item per raid, priority of main over alts, and mainspecc over off specc, but if something is going to be dissenchanted, that doesn’t count as the one item per raid. Otherwise, that leather item would have been disenchanted because no one would have wanted to sacrifice their opportunity to loot, and that’s a shame. We have another rule: If you already loot something (for your main spec) you can bid on something else to express interest, in case no one else in the raid wants it and you save it from being dissed. It’s similar to your system but I think is more fair.

    Elaine Marleys last blog post..The Extra Inch, la mejor publicidad de Philips en años

  • Ruex

    Drama is bull&%# and you guys stuck to your guns.
    We use a slightly different System for loot when it comes to mainset and offset.
    We use a Similar 1 purple per night system, but offspec items do not apply to it. B/c without this system, many people would not roll on offspec items in a run, just on the chance something for the main set would drop and lots of gear was getting sharded neadlessly. Then when someone would respec to help the group if we were short a needed class type, their offspec gear was rather poor due to not rollign on anything immediatly useful.
    We changed it because it was unfair to say penilize some one a chance at a Tier piece because they rolled and won a pair of boots they may or may not ever use.
    But then again, thats just how we do it.

  • No loot system is gonna produce ideal results for everybody in every situation. Far better ta have a clearly stated policy and ta stick with it than ta try ta make exceptions in the middle of the raid.

    Did ya see the thing about raid bosses having one BoE epic in they’s loot tables in Northrend? Will add one more wrinkle ta everybody’s loot system.

    Ratshags last blog post..Blackmail? What Blackmail?

  • While the /gquit is a bit dramatic, I also think that one epic per raid without considering off-specs is not optimal and will foster discontent and ultimately means you end up sharding lots of great off-spec loot because people will hold back and wait for specific loot instead.

    We used the same system when we started raiding, but it didn’t work out, so here’s our current system for progression raids:

    One main-spec epic per raid
    free rolls on off-spec gear

    If you’ve already won your one main-spec epic, you may also roll on items that would otherwise only go to off-spec people (that means no one else wants it for main spec)

    That way, we feel we can distribute loot amongst our guild members fairly without having too much sharded, and it makes people not focus on specific drops and overall improve.

    Kadomis last blog post..Prot Warrior DPS

  • Chris

    Regardless of what outsiders might think of the loot system it was a guild policy that had been recently ratified by the guild. I’ve found that discussing loot systems in mixed company can be as treacherous as discussion politics or religion. Sure you might see flaws in their way of doing things, but it works for them and that is what is important. With the expansion about a week away if someone is quitting a guild over raid loot then the guild is probably better off without them.

    Chriss last blog post..Let’s Get Disciplined

  • House

    I applaud you for sticking to a guild made loot rule. Even in a top raiding guild we are too flexible in the rules we create. But again, that works for us. All of our members that are in Progression strive for 1 goal. To go as far as we can, as quick as we can and to have fun doing it. Sure we have some drama along the way – nothing the officers can’t handle. Although from what I can see the pally that gquit has to be applauded too. Sure he made a small snicker and dig before he left, but to tell you the truth, he saw a situation that he didn’t like and bailed. Where from my eyes wasn’t about loot, it was about being the best raid group possible. Limiting a certain amount of Epic’s to people is not part of Blizzards game anymore. They throw epics at us like they are candy. From Arena, to badges to world BOE’s they’re literally thousands. I won’t slander your loot rules, they are yours and undoubtedly seem agreed upon. This pally rolled on something that not 1 person desired and would of gone to a void – but he decided that instead of letting it go to waste – he’d chime in. Given not his place for leather imo, it’s still a possible ret upgrade. So done and done and now the ring pops up, he’s a healing pally. Yet he is not allowed to roll cause he saved something from being DE’d.

    Limiting loot to players is something that happened in Pre-TBC in LBRS pugs. It surely doesn’t let the guild “progress” naturally specially if that ring would have gone to waste too.

    Yes it might be a week away from the biggest change we are ever going to see, but it’s the principal. So bravo Hollier. Bravo for not cause a guild stink for 2 weeks before you left, bravo for noticing something that you didn’t like, bravo for standing up for what you think is right and getting out when it wasn’t. Some guilds should be so lucky that he left with just a small comment. That has to be recognized in part of adding to the Non-Drama event.

    In short, your guild has some awesome friendships, great understanding and total cooperation. I just think you should apply it to this particular rule about loot that is now nearly 2 expansions behind. Just wait till Epic BOE’s are all the flourish come wotlk bosses.

    All the best. mmm A’lar mount….

  • GoW

    Another echo of the above opinions: never argue with loot systems in mid-raid, take up issues with loot systems between raids. Raids are execution.

    Also good to hear that your guild is cool enough to not get boiled in liquid drama. (especially one week before Wrath!)

  • Vix

    I think your rules are simple and fair, That guy Sounds like a greedy ass hat that needs to Learn Getting everything he wants and receiving what he wants are 2 different things, I doubt he lasts in his ‘next guild’